D2C Revenue Rocket Podcast
EPISODE 15
Guest: Nick Selman, Head of Growth, Shoplift
Presented by Klaviyo & ECD Digital Strategy

COLD OPEN

"That is scarce becomes the thing that is valuable, which is trust. And you're gonna paradoxically — it makes companies like your Recharges, your Yotpo's, your Okendo's, your Klaviyo's more valuable, because what those applications have built is an ecosystem, and have very powerful, trustworthy applications that an AI-generated Klaviyo replacement doesn't have any of those things, and you wouldn't trust it during BFCM."

ZAK: [0:51]
Nick, welcome to the podcast.

NICK SELMAN: [0:53]
I'm stoked. Thanks for having me, Zak.

ZAK: [0:55]
It was great to see you again — we saw each other last at DTC.dev in Toronto a couple weeks ago.

NICK SELMAN: [1:03]
Canada.

ZAK: [1:05]
Nick, I'm really excited to have you on today, talking about your background, Shoplift, AI, and what brands are doing. Before we jump in, could you give a little background on yourself, and on Shoplift, for anyone out there who doesn't know what Shoplift does?

NICK SELMAN: [1:23]
Yeah — Shoplift is the conversion rate optimization platform for Shopify, specifically Shopify Plus brands. We're the only Shopify Plus Certified CRO platform in the app store, hand-picked by Shopify — fewer than a hundred apps in the entire app store carry that certification, and we're really proud of that. We believe we've built the best way to optimize and experiment with your Shopify storefront. We've been around for a couple of years now, headquartered in New York City, just hired our 40th employee, so we're growing fast. I lead the growth team at Shoplift — sales, partnerships, marketing — and the best part of the job is getting to go to events like DTC.dev and meet some of the best operators in the ecosystem, and some of the best agencies, like ECD. So I'm pumped to be here with you today.

ZAK: [2:38]
Speaking of events you love — if I'm not mistaken, you guys threw your legendary Hamptons event this past weekend. Is that right?

NICK SELMAN: [2:50]
Yeah, I just got back from New York. We call it Camp Commerce — a day of luxury summer-camp vibes: oysters, caviar with gold flakes, a champagne toast, rare whiskey tastings, but also camp games and a beach bonfire. It's really a day of networking — about two hundred of the best e-com operators in the ecosystem. We had amazing sponsors — Northbeam and Attentive headlined this year — the CEO of Away Luggage, Hudson LeGrand the founder of Comfort on a panel, our friend Cody Plofker — some real heavy hitters. That was last Friday. We host it at what we call the Billions Mansion — Bobby Axelrod's house from the show Billions, which was actually filmed there. It's such a cool setting; not many people get to say they hang out there all day with their best DTC friends. I can't say that very often, that's for sure.

ZAK: [4:18]
Well, if you work at Shoplift, you get to say that about once a year.

NICK SELMAN: [4:22]
About once a year — yeah. I'm already looking forward to next year. A little exhausted, but looking forward to it.

ZAK: [4:27]
At ECD we've used your product a lot and we love it. Back when I used to do execution — I'm out of execution a lot these days — I loved your product because of how easy it is to use. It's mind-blowingly easy. Can you talk about how a user actually uses the product, and how you make things that easy?

NICK SELMAN: [5:01]
I'm happy to hear that — you tell us all the time and we really appreciate it, we love working with you guys. One of the things I hear most about our product is that it feels like something Shopify built themselves — it's baked into how Shopify functions. We leverage themes and templates to serve tests; the tests are actually served right through Shopify's servers. You build the variants for your split tests using the Shopify theme editor — no drag-and-drop, no WYSIWYG, no messing with fragile class selectors and overlays that break all the time. That's how a lot of A/B testing worked three, four, five years ago — I remember my Google Optimize days, a product that isn't even around anymore — really clunky, and a lot of products today are still built the same way. It takes one theme publish and the whole experience breaks, and suddenly all your visitors are seeing the wrong thing. Shoplift has safeguards built in to prevent that kind of breakage and protect the fidelity of the experience you're delivering to visitors. That's a big reason we earned the Shopify Plus Certified designation — the fidelity of the experience, and the fact that it doesn't break down during peak traffic like Black Friday/Cyber Monday. There's some incredible tech underlying what feels like a very simple product — believe me, it is not simple to do what Shoplift does. As the marketer for Shoplift, my challenge is explaining why you shouldn't trust your BFCM traffic to something that isn't built the way Shoplift is, even if a similar feature seems to exist elsewhere.

NICK SELMAN: [7:21]
There are a lot of great apps in the App Store, and I'm proud of where we are and what we've built. And honestly, this is really just the beginning — we have features coming that are going to change how brands think about CRO for e-commerce. I'm excited to dig into some of that.

ZAK: [7:41]
I love that — you guys have always been at the forefront of what's possible with the product. For anyone who hasn't used it: you can design any test you want in Shoplift, but it also has templates for the best tests — things that change what your theme does — and you don't need a whole dev team to implement them. Shoplift just does it for you on whatever theme you're using, which is wild. You mentioned Google Optimize — that product was so difficult to use.

NICK SELMAN: [8:27]
It was difficult to use, period, but also — think about how a Shopify store is built: it's Liquid. When you publish a theme, that Liquid compiles to HTML and CSS, and that's what renders the modern website. What Google Optimize and a lot of A/B testing and CRO apps do today is: once that code is compiled and rendered on the visitor's device, the app loads on top and drops changes onto the experience. So if you target a button by its class, and then a developer on your team or at your agency renames the buttons globally, the whole thing breaks. That happened to me constantly with Google Optimize — you're targeting something that isn't actually in the site's code, just in the compiled code in the browser. So you get breakage, performance degradation, the dreaded flicker — everyone who's done web long enough knows the flicker, where the page loads, then the app loads, then the content visibly changes right in front of you. And when you get into things like price testing, God forbid a visitor sees two versions of the same price flash in front of their eyes — you've destroyed all trust in your brand. We take that responsibility extremely seriously. Conversion rate optimization should build trust, not erode it.

ZAK: [10:34]
What are some ways you're baking AI analysis, and AI in general, into the product? I have to assume you're doing some really cool stuff.

NICK SELMAN: [10:50]
We're doing a lot across the board. I can talk about our roadmap — as conversion optimizers, we believe a few core things about AI. The first is that AI isn't here to do things for you that you don't understand — how often have you gotten something back from Claude or ChatGPT that was confidently wrong, and it fully believes it's right? Now imagine that tool acting autonomously on the e-commerce experience responsible for all your revenue — without a human in the loop. At least not today; who knows what the future holds. So the first thing we believe is that AI is here to augment what you're doing, not replace or automate it. In my own growth stack, I use AI to help me see around corners, recognize patterns I wouldn't catch myself, and analyze or connect large data sets I couldn't join on my own. Analysis, signal recognition, being almost a sentry — that's what I use it for every day leading growth at Shoplift. So what you'll see from Shoplift first isn't tools that do things to your site.

NICK SELMAN: [13:12]
But tools that make you a smarter, better operator. We firmly believe CRO for e-commerce is about running smarter tests, not more tests. That distinction sounds simple, but it's everything when you think about how CRO gets done today.

ZAK: [13:36]
People are running a ton of A/B tests in Shoplift — will you have the ability to make recommendations on tests brands should run, based on signals Shoplift can see inside their store, plus signals learned across other brands?

NICK SELMAN: [14:10]
That's the key point — a good AI is one that has a lot of context. A lot of AI tools are good, but they only know what they know — they're sandboxed to the four walls of their own data. You probably deal with this all the time: an AI says 'I noticed your conversion rate dipped this month,' and you're thinking, well, no duh — this is our peak spring sale period, we're driving hundreds of thousands of new cold visitors to the site, and cold traffic always converts worse than retained audiences. So we're trading conversion rate for revenue, on purpose — but the AI doesn't understand your marketing calendar, the time of year, or the audiences you're bringing in. All it sees is the ratio of traffic to checkouts. It's too simplistic. If a person brought you that finding in a meeting, you'd say, 'did you even think about the time of year?' But because it's AI, we tend to excuse it. My worry is: how many confidently wrong answers is AI giving e-commerce operators because it doesn't understand enough about the business — and then you go chase a problem that isn't actually a problem.

NICK SELMAN: [16:29]
It's just normal for that time of year and strategy. AI needs to know a lot more about your click-and-conversion funnels — your marketing calendar, the audiences you're bringing in, and qualitative things like post-purchase survey results, returns data, customer reviews, support tickets — everything an e-commerce team already ingests to make decisions. The future of AI-augmented CRO draws all of those connections together and helps a human in the loop make smarter choices, rather than making the decision for you. I'm kind of an old-school skeptic — I don't yet trust AI to act autonomously on my storefront or growth stack. Maybe in a year or two it earns that trust — I think we're getting there — but right now it needs to understand a lot more than it currently does.

ZAK: [18:24]
You said something I really like — you can build the smartest AI product, but it's boxed in by the context it has. With e-commerce, it's only as good as the brand context it's fed, and that's only as good as what somebody feeds it — and it's basically impossible for a brand to feed that much context on its own. As agencies, we have far more brand context than a brand will ever feed any AI platform — daily emails with clients, meeting recordings, their entire tech stack, their whole promo calendar. We have all of that, and often we're the ones pulling it out of the client in the first place. If that context doesn't get fed into whatever AI model or software, the AI is limited to the average of whatever data it does have.

NICK SELMAN: [19:45]
A hundred percent. We don't talk about this a lot, but Shoplift is incredibly bullish on the future of agencies in this ecosystem — I'd go so far as to say we're one of the most agency-aligned platforms in the category. What I love about agencies is that it's literally your job to pull out and structure the information that brands lack the expertise to organize themselves — to be a true strategic partner, at least the good agencies. And if you can't do that, you get fired — there's true incentive alignment between agencies and brands, because revenue doesn't lie. There's ups and downs in e-com, you can only control what you control, and the only constant is change — but if you can't help a brand make more money, you're out of a job. So what better partner to feed this kind of context into than top Shopify agencies? To get a little salesy for a second: any agencies watching this — we have complete incentive alignment with agencies, we don't compete with you at all, Shoplift exists to augment the work you're already doing.

NICK SELMAN: [22:08]
If you haven't talked to a member of our team, come talk to us — partnerships at shoplift.ai.

ZAK: [22:13]
Your whole team is great, and you're right — you don't compete with agencies, and you do a good job enabling agencies to use the product well. I'm very bullish on the future of agencies in e-commerce too — but I don't think it's the agency of today. The agency of today, in two years, is dead, because 60-70-80% of what we do is execution, and AI is making that easier. But there's still a place for the agency, between the brands and the software they use. Nobody who works at or owns an agency actually likes the execution work — what people love is the high-level strategy work. As execution gets automated or semi-automated, it frees up operators' time to focus on the higher-level strategy that actually drives revenue — a win-win-win for everybody. But you need to know what you're doing when you're orchestrating these agents, because — like anyone who's used ChatGPT or Claude knows — what you get out is only as good as what you put in. If you connect Claude to Klaviyo and just say 'create me a segment for an upcoming email campaign,' it'll grab the most basic data and give you something generic, like the highest RFM — revenue per receiver. But if you give it detailed context — 'I have a campaign for 20% off these specific products and product lines, look deep into my marketing analytics, find customers who've bought similar products before and are likely to buy again, build me that segment for this campaign' — you get something completely different.

ZAK: [24:29]
Same basic question, 'create me a segment,' but it's all the context. Again, it's the higher-level strategy and knowing how to use the product that's driving the result.

NICK SELMAN: [24:48]
Same thing happens in CRO. Klaviyo and email marketing were built for a modern e-commerce stack, but CRO — or A/B testing at least — is basically a hundred-year-old idea, built on the premise that all other things stay equal. Imagine telling an e-commerce operator: for the next two weeks, hold every other lever in the business still while I run this test — forget sales, and while you're at it, call the president and make sure there are no tariffs that might throw off the macro environment. That works great for something like an airline optimizing its JetBlue booking flow from reservation to confirmation, but it works really poorly for modern e-commerce, where if we're lucky we think in quarters — more often months or even weeks. There are calendars, launches, sales, new channels being born constantly — a year or two ago, TikTok Shop traffic basically didn't exist, and now everyone's figuring out how to convert it, and even what kind of traffic it is keeps changing. The only constant in e-commerce is change, and that doesn't work well with an A/B testing program built on old

NICK SELMAN: [27:09]
CRO orthodoxy. It just doesn't work. Operators today will tell you: I ran a test, it showed an extrapolated \$100K revenue gain, I rolled out the winner, and I'm still waiting for my hundred K — what worked in the lab didn't work in production. That's really hurting the reputation of CRO, because there's a ton of good in that paradigm, but we're candidly letting e-commerce down right now, and it has to stop. Part of the problem is these concepts feel too high-brow — statistical significance feels like a moving goalpost. We just rolled out an improvement to our statistical models that gets tests to significance three times faster without cooking the books — we modernized the statistical engine to make more sense for e-commerce: three times more statistical significance and five times more actionable data from the same test you'd have run on Shoplift a month ago. That's the kind of thing we're constantly building for operators. The other problem is CRO orthodoxy tends to feel like ants marching — pick your North Star metric and run test after test after test, this Sisyphean effort to move one number. In reality, you should be optimizing different things at different times of year — what you test during your spring sale isn't what you should test during the slow season.

NICK SELMAN: [29:31]
We actually believe you should take bigger swings when the stakes are lower. So we built this concept of 'campaigns' — a way to package and compartmentalize the experiments you're running around the strategy you're deploying at that moment, closer to how an operator actually runs the rest of the business, turning things on and off on a schedule the way you would in Meta Ads Manager. The sneaky thing it does is give you context: right now, most A/B testing programs have no memory. I haven't talked to the ECD team in a minute, but where does your test roadmap live? Probably not in Shoplift — probably a Google Sheet or a Notion doc somewhere. What you planned to run, what you actually ran, how it went, what you reported to the brand — that's all context an AI would love to have, but it lives outside of where the tests were actually run. Campaigns give your testing program memory, organization, and aggregated results, which makes the brain of your optimization program smarter and gives your AI more context to do something useful with. And it means you're not testing the same thing in July of this year that you tested last July just because nobody remembered. None of this is technically hard to do, but it's a more strategic way to think about running experimentation on Shopify. We're some of the first to plant the flag that

NICK SELMAN: [31:50]
operators deserve these things, and we're going to give them to them.

ZAK: [31:54]
I love that you're making it easy for brands and operators to keep that context. And it also matters for turnover — if an operator who's been at a business for a while leaves or gets promoted, and a new person takes over, they need to figure out what tests to run. If that knowledge is living only in the old operator's head, the new person is lost — but having it inside Shoplift solves that.

NICK SELMAN: [32:29]
Right — a very common use of AI in most organizations now is as a brain, or a memory. If I want to know what we did months ago in some part of the business, I have the tools to look it up. Yet for whatever reason, in CRO — a discipline where the whole premise is that wins and learnings compound over time — we've settled for not having access to what happened months in the past. E-commerce also has high turnover, and maybe you're inheriting an account from a previous agency and trying to catch up on what was done before. The fact that a roadmap and CRO history can just get lost in an old Google Sheet you don't even have access to is pretty unacceptable in this day and age — but for some reason we've settled for it in optimization. That's no longer the case, as long as you're using Shoplift, of course.

ZAK: [34:01]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly — that's great.

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ZAK: [34:38]
What are a couple of the two to three CRO tests every brand should run, no matter what they sell? What are some of the top two or three winners?

NICK SELMAN: [34:38]
I'd be a bad marketer if I didn't say 'it depends' — but I genuinely believe it does. Start from strategy: the calendar and CRO roadmap for a luxury skincare brand looks completely different from a creatine subscription business — different customers, different markets, different buying patterns, one-off purchase versus replenishment. The highest-leverage tests for those brands are only going to come from starting at the beginning — what is your strategy, what are you trying to do? A luxury skincare brand cracking retail has a different roadmap than one focused purely on penetrating new e-commerce markets. It's highly contextual, and thankfully we have AI — and the Shoplift team — to help figure that out. But in the interest of intellectual honesty, if you held a gun to my head, I'd say: look at mobile. Even the most old-school, desktop-shopping brands — when you actually look, the majority or at least the plurality of their traffic is coming through mobile. And we build our Shopify themes on desktop, we set up our tests on desktop — there's a lot that happens on this thirteen-inch screen in front of me that determines the actual experience for visitors.

NICK SELMAN: [36:57]
Almost universally, the biggest quick wins are sitting in the mobile experience — that's what I consistently see to be true.

ZAK: [37:08]
That's genuinely helpful for people to hear. My next question was going to be what brands waste the most time testing, and it sounds like the answer is testing things on desktop.

NICK SELMAN: [37:26]
The biggest waste of time, by far, is testing someone else's strategy. We've all seen it — a LinkedIn post like 'this brand improved conversion 5% with this one simple change, here's how,' and you think, I want that, so you get a tool to go click those buttons for you, and because you already saw it work in a video, you skip testing it and just implement it — and it destroys your funnel. Confidently wrong is a really dangerous place to be in e-com. Skepticism — 'that doesn't quite make sense for my brand' — is a really good skill to have, and you should use tools that support that curiosity and strategic thinking. Use AI to start from smarter starting points, not to run somebody else's test or execute somebody else's program. That shouldn't happen in the year of our Lord 2026 — you shouldn't have been running someone else's playbook five years ago, and you definitely shouldn't be doing it now.

ZAK: [39:04]
What would you suggest for smaller brands — say around one million dollars a year — who don't have a big team, can't afford an agency yet, don't know much about CRO, but know they want to improve conversion? Where would they even start?

NICK SELMAN: [39:29]
There are a couple of mandatories to that starting stack. First, start with your calendar — I have a tool that lets you benchmark yourself against aggregated category data, and by time of year, since conversion rate looks different at different points in the year. Once you know where you sit in your category, use AI to systematically look at what the top brands in your category are doing that you're not. This is also somewhere Shoplift can help — we can audit your store and tell you, for example, that as an apparel brand the pillars of experimentation you need to focus on are things like fit confidence: everyone who lands on your site wants to know if it'll fit them, and if your CRO isn't addressing that, expect to convert fewer visitors. Don't chase things that don't matter for your category — there are just a handful of core pillars to stay focused on. The next thing that's critically important and hugely under-leveraged is qualitative information.

NICK SELMAN: [41:50]
Post-purchase surveys remain the most untapped source of test ideas out there. If you're not looking at what people say in post-purchase surveys and doubling down on what convinced them, or fixing the bottlenecks that people who actually bought your product still ran into and pushed through anyway — those should be the very first experiments you fix or ship. Treat AI as your friend here: synthesize all of that information and have it help build out a testing program that makes sense for you. One more source I forgot: business context — pull your meeting transcripts from Granola or Gemini or wherever you record meetings, point your LLM at your Slack conversations. With the nine-figure brands we work with, most of their best test ideas come from meetings where someone says 'this doesn't make sense, we should try this' — conversations that weren't even framed as CRO discussions. There's so much richness in the conversations already happening in the business every day, and an AI plugged into those things can help you spot opportunities you'd otherwise miss. So: your benchmarks, a free quick audit we can run for any brand — just reach out — and a lot of qualitative sources like post-purchase surveys and the conversations already happening in your business. You need to pay attention to how much traffic a test is going to get in order to reach statistical significance — click funnels and heat maps need a lot of traffic and data to be valuable.

NICK SELMAN: [44:10]
Session recordings are genuinely useful too — but those data sets tend to be less reliable at an earlier-stage e-commerce business.

ZAK: [44:32]
You might already be working on this, or have a version of it, but hearing you talk through this — it would be great if you had a prompt library: prompts that brands or agencies could use with their own data to build their CRO strategy. Here's the prompt, here's the data to feed into it — some of the examples you just gave — and it generates the roadmap for you. That'd be a neat way to get people started on their first two or three tests and toward a consistent testing strategy.

NICK SELMAN: [45:19]
100% — something we're actively working on. We'll have a feature live, I think this week or next, that lets you import an entire roadmap into Shoplift and schedule or launch it. You could do a lot of this with Claude Code — actually building pages on Shopify with it. You could run an entire CRO program without ever opening Shoplift — it doesn't even need MCP, honestly MCP is overbuilt for this; all you need is a vanilla API. We're going to do a lot more education around this idea: build the landers with Claude Code, launch or schedule the tests with Shoplift, do the reporting through the Shoplift connectors. A lot of operators are talking right now about the 'touchless app' — where you don't even open the application to use it. That's the future, man. That's the future.

ZAK: [46:25]
A lot of people I talk to are saying the same thing — that the UI/UX of the apps they're building may not matter as much in a couple of years, because people will just want to connect their own AI to whatever tools they use and operate everything from there.

NICK SELMAN: [46:46]
If you're a product designer at Shoplift, cover your ears — don't listen to Zak. We actually have an incredible UI/UX team, and there are so many copycats out there ripping off our product design because it's that good. I don't disagree with you, Zak, but it still matters today.

ZAK: [47:08]
It'll always matter to someone, just maybe not to everybody. Some people will always want to be inside the apps they use — it's easier, and that's just where they'll want to operate. But there will absolutely be a segment of people who want to run everything from inside Claude Code. That said — not everybody's going to get into Claude Code. Anyone listening who isn't in there yet: get in, it'll blow your mind what you can build.

NICK SELMAN: [47:53]
It's pretty nuts. I actually wrote a social post about this over the weekend — my first real experience with Claude Code was very recent. I was a Claude Cowork person up until then. Someone on my team put me in front of a Claude Code project I needed to collaborate on, and I was like, oh my god — and the very next day I was already spinning up my own Claude Code repo for another project I'd sidelined forever. It's not as hard or scary as it seems — just get in, put it in auto mode, ask it how it would approach something, and before you know it you're building your own repo and doing real work.

ZAK: [48:47]
We're building a genuinely great SaaS product at ECD — hiring people to help build it — but in the meantime I'm just getting started building it out with Claude Code myself. This past weekend my wife almost killed me — I spent almost the whole weekend inside Claude Code building some amazing stuff. I'm not a developer, I don't know how to write a line of code. What I built this weekend would have taken six months and a hundred grand a year ago. I built it with a few thousand tokens.

ZAK: [49:43]
Where do you see the Shoplift app, the Shopify app marketplace, and the agency marketplace going in twelve to twenty-four months? What are some of the main changes you'd predict?

NICK SELMAN: [49:48]
Great question. My honest belief is that a lot of the hyped stuff isn't going to happen — there's a lot of talk about AI-generated apps and mini-applications that do small jobs, and I'm a firm believer that merchants should build small apps to solve their own small problems. But the idea that application costs drop to a tenth because AI makes development easy is overblown — you buy software for uptime, maintenance, trust, and customer success, things you'll never get from an AI-generated app where the founder has already moved on. I posted about this recently: in the age of AI, the thing that's scarce becomes valuable — and that's trust. Paradoxically, that makes companies like Recharge, Yotpo, Okendo, and Klaviyo more valuable, because those platforms have built ecosystems and trustworthy applications that an AI-generated Klaviyo replacement just doesn't have — you wouldn't trust it during BFCM. So I think a lot of the 'where is the App Store headed' conversation is much ado about nothing. If you're an app developer, lean into building good software, not quick software.

ZAK: [51:46]
I like it. All right, Nick, we're at the end — a couple rapid-fire questions. Ready? One habit brands should drop tomorrow.

NICK SELMAN: [51:53]
Let's do it.

NICK SELMAN: [51:57]
Following other people's strategy.

ZAK: [52:01]
One tool outside of Shoplift you love right now.

NICK SELMAN: [52:05]
In e-commerce, or any tool?

ZAK: [52:09]
Any tool — you can't say Claude Code, we already covered that.

NICK SELMAN: [52:14]
Here's one — not e-commerce related at all: I connected all of my health data into my personal ChatGPT professional account, and it was able to confirm a health concern I was suspicious about. I'm being proactive about my health because of it, and I'm genuinely glad that's something I have access to now.

ZAK: [52:42]
That's awesome — and interesting you say ChatGPT there. I've put all my health info into ChatGPT too, and I've found it's noticeably better at that than Claude for health-related stuff.

NICK SELMAN: [52:56]
I never tried Claude, but glad to hear I picked the right platform for that one.

ZAK: [53:02]
Where can people follow you and find you?

NICK SELMAN: [53:08]
I try to post — I'm Nick Selman on LinkedIn and Twitter, those are the two main ones. I'm on Instagram but private there. I'm a pretty boring person, honestly — Midwest dad with two young kids, and outside of my day job I mostly just cook and hang out with my family. Full dad mode outside of work. And if you want to reach me for work — nick@shoplift.ai.

ZAK: [53:41]
Awesome, Nick — great seeing you, great talking as always.

NICK SELMAN: [53:45]
Thank you so much, Zak — this was really fun, thanks for having me.

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